With Jacques Bourgeois
Paris, 36 Avenue Georges Mandel, 30 September 1968
Bourgeois: Maria Callas, I wanted this album to constitute a complete panorama of your personality in most diverse vocal aspects. I therefore think that, to be absolutely complete, it should include your speaking voice as well. Such is the original pretext of this interview which you have had the kindness to grant me.
Maria Callas, I believe that, besides your musical specialization, you are one of the most famous artists of this world and this era. As it is known, your fame was not achieved straightaway; you had to fight for it. And in the beginning of your career, you were challenged (as it is said today) by, say, an old school of regular opera visitors – who, by the way, were not necessarily music lovers – and whom you disturbed in their habits. Have you had the feeling of being revolutionary – I mean, doing something other than what people were used to do? Were you doing that on purpose, or were you guided exclusively by your intuition?
Callas: Obviously, intuition plays the most important role, let us say, but the schooling, bel canto, is even more important. I came across Elvira de Hidalgo in Greece – what a stroke of luck! – then came the war. During that period, I was studying and practicing in a pure bel canto style. Therefore, it wasn’t only my intuition, but also the things we were engaged in at that time. True, those people might have been music lovers, as you have mentioned, but it wasn’t really their fault if they couldn’t find in me what they were used to – they were used to listening to another school. They had been spoiled by us singers.
Bourgeois: You claim to draw your inspiration from tradition exclusively. I think that you are very modest.
Callas: Well, no…
Bourgeois: Because there is a personal contribution that appears considerable to me; precisely, the way in which you have revived this tradition by breathing a new life into it.
Callas: I will tell you, dear Jacques Bourgeois, that if one wants to make music, or genuine art, one needs to be modest.
Bourgeois: Yes.
Callas: And then, after thirty years of a career – alas, the more we know, the less it is.
Bourgeois: It is true. It is true.
Callas: So we have become very modest by necessity, and since we also create, it can put us in an awkward position.
Bourgeois: And could you tell me in which manner you study a role?
Callas: Oh my God!… [she laughs]
Bourgeois: It is very important!
Callas: In the beginning, it is simple; one makes the first…
Bourgeois: …Contour.
Callas: Contour, correct.
Bourgeois: I understand.
Callas: When studying a character, one naturally asks: "Who is she?" If, say, she belongs to the upper class, she has specific movements – correct? – specific gestures that an ordinary woman doesn’t have. All can be done quickly when one has a clear idea of the things she would do, what her gestures, behavior and body posture are like, how she should wear costumes… All these details are learned little by little, of course. And then, one thinks about the music. In the beginning, one studies strictly as written. Then, one begins to take some liberty with the words, according to the composer, because…
Bourgeois: The composer, [or,] the style of the period.
Callas: Yes. We know the tradition, but not entirely. The composer should also think about us, since the interpretation also depends on our good taste. Obviously, it is a long work. In the beginning…
Bourgeois: Certainly. And little by little, your characters takes shape.
Callas: And little by little, the contour takes shape, so to speak – it gets clothes, eyes, nose, mouth… And then, the worries begin, since a role is created with thousands of details, thousands of colors. And it is not only a matter of color, it is also vibration of the voice, depending more or less on the words; there are vibrations [of voice], just like in the case of a violin. And depending on the words being sung, the vibrations have to be more or less fast, more or less… Well, we try our best, but obviously, it is a little difficult; once the work has began, it is never finished. This is also the joy of the work: a role is never finished, because one finds something to add every day.
Bourgeois: Your interpretations are never definitive?
Callas: Oh, no. Though it appears to be so in some cases. There are roles like Medea that have much changed. In the beginning, I had a firm idea of how I wanted her to be; then, with years and life experience, I tried to change and improve her – to make her a bit more tender, more… well…
Bourgeois: Human.
Callas: More human, correct. And of course, there are other roles that certainly have changed, since every performance changes within me – always.
Bourgeois: From one evening to another.
Callas: From one evening to another. It is always almost… it is not…
Bourgeois: Almost the same, but never completely identical…
Callas: Never. It is…
Bourgeois: …because you create it.
Callas: No, because it is also… In that regard, here is a comparison – another one: it is like two signatures, correct? When you sign twice, it is never the same thing.
Bourgeois: Exactly.
Callas: Therefore, we can’t do that either.
Bourgeois: When creating a character, do you try to put yourself in its place, or try to give it your personality?
Callas: No. I first try to imagine what this character would do…
Bourgeois: Yes.
Callas: …in accordance with her temperament, so to speak. And subsequently, I ask myself: "Alright, if I were that woman, how would I act? How would I do this?" So you see, it is a…
Bourgeois: A mixture of both.
Callas: A mixture of both. But I don’t reason only as the person who I am; I become that woman then: "If I were that woman, how would I act?" Therefore… I don’t know if I have answered your question well.
Bourgeois: Indeed you have – it is very interesting, and, in fact, it is close to what I wished you to answer. Because…
Callas [laughing]: Ah! Why, yes.
Bourgeois: It certainly reaffirms the idea I have already had…
Callas: This is the cause of many sleepless nights, because one asks: "My God, if I were her, what would I do, and how?", then one tries something different and… Studying never stops, you see. All these situations are very simple, and they are exactly like real life situations, alas. With one difference, however: on the stage, we sing about many dreams, beautiful dreams and hopes – which exist in the real life as well, but they are not always realized. On the stage, we may utter thousand times: "My God, true love, great… great loyalty" – and alas, I don’t think that these things exist in life.
Bourgeois: Ah, but they do…
Callas: Loyalty is a rather rare thing.
Bourgeois: Yes? You think so?…
Callas: Gratefulness is rather rare thing. But…
Bourgeois: Yes? It exists, nevertheless, we should believe that it exists.
Callas: Very rarely, yes; we should believe… as you have just said: we should believe in it. And I am the first to give that example on the stage.
Bourgeois: And I also think that you have always succeeded in justifying your characters, in fact, even the monstrous ones like Medea…
Callas: Yes, it should be so.
Bourgeois: You have succeeded in having the justice on your side.
Callas: In fact, tell me – Jason was not really a wonderful man, was he?
Bourgeois: That is right.
Callas: If we are to chose between Medea and him, I don’t really know who should be hung.
Bourgeois: Well, in your case, in general, it would be Medea!
Callas [laughs]: And it is my duty, because she got the worst of the whole situation.
Bourgeois: Yes, it is so.
Callas: Let’s say that she shouldn’t have killed her children, but this is another matter. She was not born to be a woman; she was not a woman. Her origin was not that of a woman. She betrayed what she was supposed to be: a sorceress. So you see…
Bourgeois: Very well, very well.
Callas: Ultimately, she was not the villainess of the piece.
Bourgeois: But tell me, all this is an original approach which is not based solely on the tradition you have talked about a few moments ago…
Callas: No, it is not, that is true; I spoke about music then.
Bourgeois: Yes.
Callas: And now, we are talking about the character; this is much more serious.
Bourgeois: Of course. Nevertheless, in your concept, it is a completely integrated thing, is it not?
Callas: Oh yes.
Bourgeois: You believe that acting is as important as singing in opera.
Callas: Even more so.
Bourgeois: Even more so.
Callas: Yes, because we have music, and everything is more ridiculous with it. An operatic character can easily become ridiculous because of the music.
Bourgeois: Certainly.
Callas: Because we can’t sing "I love you" without becoming ridiculous. This is already a handicap. And if we don’t…
Bourgeois: Yes, but why?
Callas: Because if you sing now… You are asking me why it is so – sing it to me, and you will see. It instantly becomes ridiculous.
Bourgeois: Listen, I would have to ask you to sing that to me yourself! [Both loudly laugh]
Callas: But I have so many records expressing the exact same thing…
Bourgeois: It is true!
Callas: …You see, then: the situation is already ridiculous because it is old-fashioned (this is, at least, what I think), because I find it slightly out of fashion, not for the present day.
Bourgeois: Listen, this is a wonderful thought coming from an artist like you; however, you will permit me not to agree completely. What strikes me, you see, is that you were challenged, as I have just said, by an old school of opera lovers who precisely considered opera a "safe" art – they came to opera to listen to high notes and beautiful sounds. But since opera is perhaps an art which has been outdated, as you say, it is perhaps their concept, the concept of that old school, that has been truly outdated. You have rallied round you a young audience of opera lovers who thought that operatic theatre was a ridiculous and old-fashioned art…
Callas: You are right.
Bourgeois: …and to whom you have proved that opera could be an extraordinarily exciting and extraordinarily accomplished show.
Callas: Precisely; I had to do so because of my character which demands that I do well the things I do, and also because I should believe in what I am doing, of course. My colleagues are supposed to follow me on that path which can be called certain.
Bourgeois: I believe…
Callas: They should work harder…
Bourgeois: Certainly.
Callas: …not only to sing the right notes, but also to go beyond them.
Bourgeois: I believe that you have been followed and that opera is no longer sung quite in the same way today as it was twenty years ago – thanks to you.